Raiff Chat by Raiffeisen Tech #3 - On ESG, Gaia, and Trains

We’ll take you behind the scenes of the Gaia project, discussing the challenges we faced and how technology supports companies in ESG reporting. We’ll also answer the question: Is ESG just a passing trend, or is it the foundation for the future of business? In our special "hit or myth" segment, we’ll debunk popular opinions about ESG and technologies to clear up any doubts.

If you want to learn how innovative technologies are shaping corporate social responsibility, join us for the third episode of Raiff Chat.

Raiff Chat can be found on:

Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZMRdKFuAQk&t=68s (polish version)

Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/0s2J9stiGhledgLt9gUmlm (polish version)

• Klaudia Bednarczyk: Hi, who would have thought that I’d have the pleasure of welcoming you to the third episode of our podcast, Raiff Chat by Raiffeisen Tech. And it's a great surprise because I’m not welcoming you alone. I’m joined by Tomek Przewłocki – Senior UX Designer, who has joined me on Raiff Chat and will be our new host. Hi, Tomek!
• Tomasz Przewłocki: Hi!
• KB: I’ve already had the chance to get to know our listeners a little bit, and I’ve shared a few things about myself in our previous episodes. Now, it’s time for you to learn a little more about our new host. And to keep with tradition, we’ll do it in the same style we use to get to know our special guests. Before I give the floor to Tomek, here are a few interesting facts about him. Are you ready?
• TP: Go ahead!
• KB: Alright, here we go. Tomek joined Raiffeisen Tech in 2019, so he’s been with us almost from the very beginning. He has vast graphic and design experience in various industries.
• TP: Yes, that’s true. And the experience, well, the numbers show it.
• KB: He keeps his finger on the pulse, knows what’s happening, follows new tools and design trends, and is always eager to share interesting tidbits.
• TP: Yes, I really enjoy sharing knowledge, and I hope you’ll see that.
• KB: He loves mountains, snowboarding, and cats.
• TP: That’s right. I even have a couple of cats.
• KB: You never have to encourage him to turn on the camera during meetings. And it’s a great opportunity to admire the cats in all their glory.
• TP: That’s true. Especially one of them, who insists on being seen, so he always happily joins my meetings.
• KB: He’s a true calm oasis. A very positive and warm person, always ready with a kind word for everyone.
• TP: Well, I believe that we’re building various things together here, so I’m happy to be part of different teams. I also try to share my experience and support my colleagues, so we can create together.
• KB: And it’s great that you like sharing your knowledge because I’m sure it will bring a fresh perspective, a new direction, and an exciting angle to our podcast. Tomek, to back up what I mentioned in the intro, share with us an interesting fact you’ve recently heard that had a significant impact on you.
• TP: I’m not sure if it’s the most recent, but it seems like a principle that might seem pretty unexpected, especially when it comes to dealing with different types of users. We tend to, well, as designers, maybe a bit less because we’re aware of it, but we tend to assume we know what our users want, what they expect, and what their needs are. And it turns out that this is the biggest trap when creating digital products. Why? Because we often make assumptions without validating them. And that leads to creating solutions or functionalities that, paradoxically, don’t serve the users, or are even unnecessary for them. There’s a tough discussion here because product owners or business owners argue that because they’re deep into their products or niches, they know what they’re doing and who they’re doing it for. But research often shows that it’s not quite so. That’s why it’s worth investing in validating that knowledge, asking users for their opinions, and often just observing. There’s a saying from Henry Ford, who said long ago that if he asked his users what they wanted, they’d have said faster horses. And that’s still very relevant today. If we ask them directly, we’ll get a direct answer. But a lot happens in between, in various usage contexts, and it’s worth verifying that. So I hope we’ll get the chance, together with our guests, of course, not just the two of us, to hear some great stories about how we’re doing projects here.
• KB: Of course! And today we have even more interesting facts and great stories for you because you’ll soon meet our guest. This episode will take us into the inspiring world of technology, sustainable development, and values that are becoming increasingly important for business. We're talking about ESG. And when we talk about ESG at Raiffeisen Tech, Gaia immediately comes to mind. Gaia is the first ESG-related project at Raiffeisen Tech, and we’ll be talking about it today. We’ll take you behind the scenes of the project to show you how modern technologies can support ecology in business. Stay with us!
  

• Klaudia Bednarczyk: The end of November and beginning of December is a time when ESG is talked about a lot. Not only because of the conferences that are held at this time, not just the United Nations conference on climate change. We're also approaching the end of the year when many companies start preparing for ESG reporting. And it's no coincidence that we’re talking about reporting. But before we get to that, let me introduce you to the person responsible for the Gaia project at Raiffeisen Tech. Hi, Natalia!
• Natalia Włodarczyk: Hi!
• Tomasz Przewłocki: Natalia, we have a tradition on Raiff Chat where we ask our colleagues to share interesting facts about our guests. This way, we get to know our heroes behind the scenes, through the eyes of their coworkers. Are you ready to hear a little bit about yourself?
• NW: I’m a bit scared, but let’s go.
• TP: Natalia is a firecracker, with Duracell batteries instead of a heart. She’s a whirlwind of energy who can’t sit still for a moment. Today here, tomorrow there, the day after in the Brazilian favelas. Actually, in the Brazilian favelas! How did she get there? Hard to say, but it’s safe to say that traveling is her second nature.
• NW: Yes, that’s me.
• KB: She’s been involved in charity work for years. Wherever help is needed, Natalia is there 5 minutes earlier.
• TP: Natalia’s smile is infectious. She has so much enthusiasm that every conversation with her is a boost of positive energy. And she’s perfected this art.
• NW: Yes, that’s right.
• KB: When Natalia starts telling a story, it feels like you’ve entered a theater full of surprises, where each performance includes tragedy, drama, comedy, and sometimes an unexpected plot twist.
• NW: Those stories are endless. But once I start, a lot happens in them.
• TP: In her free time, she dances, does Tabata, and plays sports. She’s always on the move.
• NW: Not Tabata anymore, but I do exercise, dance, and stay active. That’s true.
• KB: An unusual hobby? The foreign exchange market. In her free time, Natalia analyzes exchange rates like they’re chapters of a fascinating book.
• NW: Yes, though that was supposed to be a little secret.
• KB: Alright, don’t tell anyone.
• TP: Natalia is also a retired cheerleader, who can still muster the energy worthy of the National Stadium.
• NW: Oh yes, yes! I could dance at the National Stadium.
• KB: And after such an introduction, we can now gladly say, welcome Natalia Włodarczyk, Product Owner of the Gaia team at Raiffeisen Tech. Hi, Natalia!
• NW: Good morning, hi!
• KB: Natalia, before we start, tell us, what exactly is ESG?
• NW: Let’s start with the term ESG itself. It consists of three pillars: the environmental pillar, the social pillar, and corporate governance, which can be tied to corporate social responsibility (CSR), meaning the responsibility of companies, beyond just business operations, to care about employee rights, the surrounding environment, and to follow corporate governance principles.When it comes to the ESG taxonomy, the regulator’s goal is to provide companies with a classification system so that, when making investment and financial decisions, we have a clear picture of how a company performs in the area of sustainable development and social responsibility.
• KB: And before we dive into discussing the next main topic, the Gaia project, explain briefly what it is. We know it’s the first Raiffeisen Tech project focusing on ESG-related requirements. How did the idea for this project come about and what are its main goals?
  

• NW: Gaia is a regulatory project. And when it comes to regulatory projects, it's nothing new for us in the banking sector. After the 2008 crisis, many regulations appeared in the European market, internationally, and on the domestic market as well. These regulations were designed to manage sometimes chaotic ESG taxonomy regulations. These guidelines can be summed up with one phrase: no significant harm. In investments, we focus on ensuring that investments do not have a negative impact on, for example, the company's environment or employees. Gaia is a project that aims to facilitate this process and evaluation. As with most regulatory processes, business awareness is quite low at the very early stage of implementation. Additionally, the evaluation process itself is rather complicated. And if we were to analyze the regulations published on the European Union website, even if I wanted to prank someone, and I really enjoy pranks, I wouldn't wish for anyone to have to read that when, for example, providing a loan. So, we propose an intuitive solution. It lists all the requirements, and as soon as they’re filled out, the answers light up in red or green, so the person responsible for the process is immediately informed whether they stand a chance of obtaining the status or not. We propose different paths to obtain this status, so the application is the answer to a requirement related to this complicated and still unfamiliar regulatory process in the market.
• KB: Who uses the application?
• NW: At the moment, it’s used by bank employees. However, in the future, we hope that, just like with previous regulations, we will be able to hand the questionnaire over to the clients.
• TP: Natalia, you have quite a lot of experience in banking, so tell us, is it common for EU regulations to affect how the financial sector is structured? Or in what direction it needs to go?
• NW: EU regulations are now a daily occurrence in the banking sector. There are EU regulations, global market regulations, and additionally, Polish regulations. After the crisis in 2008, when it turned out that the market was operating in a chaotic way, regulators started analyzing individual processes. Regulations like EMIR and MiFID were created to keep the market in check. So, aside from the fact that we are obligated to follow them, we also have a significant responsibility to report them appropriately. The goal is not to scare the client or anyone reporting the data with the process itself. So, working with the client at the beginning is crucial to doing it correctly. 
• In the early stages of implementing a regulatory obligation, most of the work lies with the Relationship Manager or another person responsible for client contact. This is because the process of educating the client on why the process is being conducted, what it leads to, what its consequences are, what needs to be delivered, and guiding them through the process is key.
• Additionally, it’s worth noting that, at the moment, our application is available only to bank employees. So, even though the client provides all the data, the bank employee fills out the entire questionnaire on their behalf. This is because the questionnaire requires expert knowledge that the client wouldn't yet be able to handle themselves. In the future, I hope we will be able to hand this process over to clients because they have the knowledge. We are placing the bank employee between the client and the process to assist them. However, regulations like MiFID have shown that the process was very similar. Initially, when awareness was low, we needed support. But later, we could hand over some elements to the clients.
• TP: How did you become interested in ESG and sustainable development?
• NW: From my perspective, corporate social responsibility is a must-have in today’s world. I’m very much into personal development and truly believe that there’s invaluable potential in people. Companies that act responsibly, care for their employees' rights, focus on their development, and treat human potential as the most valuable asset can achieve so much. And I’d even go further. I think this generation entering the workforce now demands this from their employers. It’s no longer just about salary. Aspects related to personal development are becoming more and more important. It’s already an obligation. And if we break ESG down into these three pillars, the social aspect is the closest to me. We mentioned my volunteer work earlier. And when it comes to volunteering, I truly believe that as individuals, we can accomplish a lot. And when company support is involved, this potential multiplies.
• KB: And that’s a great example of how you can combine passion, hobbies, and interests with your professional life.
• NW: Yes, it’s great that you can transfer your personal inspirations and values into your work. That’s something everyone would like to have in their job. Because when you approach it this way, your motivation is completely different. Gaia is my first application, but it’s definitely not my first IT project that I had the chance to build from scratch. And it was incredibly motivating for me because I’m a maximizer in Gallup’s strengths, and I love doing big things. In previous projects, even though I had some spectacular solutions under my belt, I always faced some limitations. Those were applications that were already functioning and part of some ecosystem. So, even if I had a great idea, it turned out that it could be realized, but often only to some extent. But Gaia is a project that we built from scratch. So, the whole process of creating this project is quite interesting. From my perspective, being given a blank sheet of paper and having the business leadership to create something, to build something, was something I absolutely loved.
• TP: So, revealing a bit of the future, I think we will return to the topic of Gaia’s beginnings and how we built this project in terms of user relations and the whole area of development. But I wanted to ask, in relation to the Gallup talent you mentioned – the maximizer. From this perspective of doing big things, do you see any technologies on the horizon that could help manage or develop projects like Gaia?
• NW: In terms of technology, we explored a few paths during the project’s creation. And we usually chose the more difficult ones. I can't imagine building a modern application without them. I’ll always be an advocate for AI and process automation so that the development team can focus on more ambitious tasks that require more creative thinking.
• KB: And how is it working with Gaia for you?
  

• NW: Oh, this is my favorite question! Gaia is a fantastic team. From the very beginning, this project was a huge challenge in terms of the timeline. Since the regulatory deadline was approaching, the bank wanted to be ready. A group of stakeholders from Vienna came to us, and the MVP of the project had to be delivered within three months. Then, right after the MVP, we had to deliver the full project in nine months, ready for production, with a comprehensive set of business features. Given this, we made a somewhat risky decision to create a development team made up entirely of seniors. Why risky? Because on one hand, these are people with extensive knowledge and experience, but on the other hand, they also have strong opinions on various topics, which is natural. There’s also the natural issue of differing motivation after many years of work. However, those doubts never materialized in this team. In Gaia, I see seniors who have been coding or designing for years, but still have that spark in their eyes. I see ownership, they take responsibility for what they deliver, and they often surprise me with their ideas and approach.A funny anecdote comes to mind. Once, a new programmer joined us. We had our first retrospective after his first sprint. He was generally very quiet, but he said that he saw our team as a speeding train. Everything was moving so fast. And that was true because we were racing against the deadline, so we had to keep up a high pace. Then, he continued that once he jumped on that train, he realized it was actually a great party inside. And we all know that I love parties, so if I can have that kind of atmosphere at work too, I couldn’t be happier. The team is simply my biggest strength and support. Whenever something difficult happens, whether it’s in a meeting with stakeholders or in other circumstances, everything just fades away when I’m with my Gaia team. It really embodies the values we’ve been talking a lot about recently. Both the train with a party inside represents our value of joy, and the commitment – another one of our values. And these values all come from people. Our team is proof that the values we talk about are not just on paper, but they actually guide us in our work and in our relationships with each other.
• KB: Yes, I can confirm that when it comes to the value of joy and commitment, our work in Raiffeisen Tech projects truly shows that it's part of our daily routine. That's just how we operate.
• TP: You mentioned earlier, Natalia, about getting a clean slate when you started working on Gaia. I wonder if that's not an obvious thing when starting new initiatives? I'm curious, how did the initial phase and the collaboration between business and the UX designer look from your perspective?
• NW: I have to say right away, it's not a given that we get a clean slate. Stakeholders who often finance the project already have some vision for it. It's a matter of trust to let us create. And I truly believe that when we delegate tasks to people who are experts in a given area, the outcome will exceed our wildest expectations.Our beginning was actually quite classic. We met with our stakeholders, they presented their vision for the product, we created a story map and prepared a prototype. After the prototype phase, we conducted user interviews. Even during these interviews, we could already sense that, on one hand, users were saying they liked certain things, but there was a certain friction they weren’t ready to openly voice yet. We hadn’t established mutual trust at that point. As a product owner, it’s our job to have a vision for the product. I believe this vision is essential to making the team feel secure. If we have a roadmap and know where we’re going, we can organize our work much better, and if everyone knows the direction, the work becomes much more efficient. But on the other hand, we have to balance that with a user-centered approach. It's not an easy task, because on one hand, the product owner is responsible for the product, but on the other hand, the product should be as tailored to the customer's needs as possible.So, once we had the prototype, one of my favorite parts of the design process is meeting with the end users. We organized workshops in Vienna. After the first warm-up exercise, which lasted 10 minutes and was simply a blank flip chart with the question "What bothers you most in the current process?" we saw the first responses. We knew, because I was there with Maja, our UX Designer, that we absolutely had to redefine our approach to the problems the users were facing. Those were very tough workshops because it became clear that the prototype we created didn’t address the most important needs, the biggest pain points users had shared. I remember that the workshop lasted 4 hours and no one left the room for a break. We were in a battle frenzy because we were already into development and, theoretically, starting to build the foundation for what had already been designed. We had the feeling that this was either today or never. Users, who initially didn’t trust us because they met us for the first time during the interview phase, hadn’t told us openly what they needed. But in our Gaia project, a very valuable element is the tools and techniques that allow us to gather feedback from users. In our case, a very simple tool – a map of the biggest challenges and pain points – turned out to be a perfect solution. Sometimes, more complicated solutions can work, but the key is to reach out to the user. It’s important to remember that if I’m a stakeholder or product owner, this is not my app, and I shouldn’t adjust it to my needs. We need to remember that the user is at the center, with their habits, their challenges, and we are creating this for them.
• KB: And I think this confirms what we said earlier about the train with you at the helm speeding along. Those four-hour workshops in Vienna are definitely something we can be proud of, but let’s pause here for now. I’ll explain why, and we’ll come back to this topic later. Could you also tell us where this train will be heading in 2025? Where is Gaia headed?
• NW: Our plan for 2025 is twofold. First, we plan to expand to six network banks. Right now, we’re preparing for the rollout in Romania, followed by Croatia and other countries, so that as many bank employees as possible can use this tool. Because right now, the process is really labor-intensive, so if we have a ready tool, we want to make it as widespread as possible. On the other hand, we’re facing completely new challenges with new technological stacks, so the speeding train will need to accelerate.
• KB: Yes, technology is always in motion. Just like you. That pause I mentioned is just temporary because we’ll also be talking about Gaia in the second season of Raiff Chat, coming in 2025. We’ll dedicate another episode to Gaia, focusing on the UX side of the project. We’ll also invite Maja, whom you mentioned, to join us for that episode. But more details soon.
• TP: And that would be the second part. Now, let’s move on to the third part: HIT OR MYTH. 
  

• Klaudia Bednarczyk: Hit or Myth, our finale, where we want to either debunk or confirm the most commonly repeated stories related to technology, IT, and the general theme of our episode. Today, we’ll be confronting common myths and theses in the context of ESG and technology. Let's begin.
• Tomasz Przewłocki: Natalia, there are a few myths and hits ahead. After I read each of them, please tell me whether, in your opinion, it's a hit or a myth, and explain why. Ready?
• Natalia Włodarczyk: Sure!
• TP: Hit or Myth - Technologies can simplify ESG processes and increase their accessibility.
• NW: Hit. I would broaden this statement – technologies can simplify almost any process and increase its accessibility. There's a reason I ended up in this sector, because I believe that technology can simplify our daily tasks. We've already mentioned regulations, how numerous they are, and the many responsibilities bank employees have as a result. I believe that these simple tasks should be simplified as much as possible. If there are tools we can use, and by doing so, employees have space to focus on more inspiring topics, ones that develop them and require much more creativity, we should do it. I would go as far as saying that automation is the future, and technology is our ally.
• KB: Hit or Myth – ESG applications are just tools to meet formal requirements.
• NW: It's hard to argue that an application isn't used to meet formal requirements. That is, after all, the essence of the whole project. However, regulatory applications, in addition to fulfilling the requirements, also aim to make the daily routines of employees who have to deal with these requirements easier.
• TP: Hit or Myth – Creating ESG applications is a simple data integration process.
• NW: Myth. Of course, when it comes to data integration, the application is already integrated with several systems from which we need to pull data, so that the employee doesn’t have to switch between systems or check other sources. The data should be visible directly from the application. However, the process of creating an application is definitely broader than just data integration. A large part of this process involves researching user needs and addressing their daily challenges. Additionally, creating an application requires in-depth knowledge of the regulation itself, understanding its mechanisms, and identifying patterns. It's important to find as many common elements as possible, so that an employee who goes through the process once, will later have it automated, rather than rediscovering it each time.
• KB: Hit or Myth – ESG is just a trendy fad that will pass.
  

• NW: Myth. Whether we call it ESG, sustainable development, CSR, because the name is evolving, fulfilling the principles of responsible business is our duty. Therefore, I wouldn't view this as just a regulatory trend, but rather as a must-have in today's market.
• TP: And finally, a small preview of the UX-focused, Gaia-related part of our podcast episode – Hit or Myth – User feedback is crucial in ESG projects.
  

• NW: Absolutely a hit. User feedback is crucial when creating any application that will later be used by someone. Regardless of the perspective from which we create the app, we should always prioritize the user. They are the end recipient, so using tools like workshops, interviews, and delving into the user's daily routine – what they have to face – is the primary responsibility of those developing the app.
• KB: And we'll talk more about this in future episodes of our podcast. Natalia, thank you so much for all the advice and insights you’ve shared with us today. I think this is a solid dose of inspiration that fuels us – but also you – in the pursuit of changing the world through the lens of ESG, sustainable development, and technology. I'm really happy we met, learned about Gaia's story, saw how it impacts the financial sector and ESG, and also learned about the role of passions and values in all of this.
• TP: Thank you very much. And just to remind you, our guest today was Natalia Włodarczyk – Product Owner in the Gaia project.
• NW: Thank you very much, and I can't wait for that episode about UX and the continuation of the story about the four-hour workshop, where no one left the room until we reached a common vision.
• KB: You’ve really inspired me; I’d love to hear the rest of that story. But let’s be clear, our workshops don't always look like that. We also value rest.
• NW: Of course, not! But it's also an example of the engagement we’ve been talking about. The desire to come up with something. When we do something, let's do it the best we can. When we do something, let's do it big.
• KB: Definitely! Thank you so much, and see you in the next episode.
• NW: Bye!